“All Things Book Marketing” Podcast: The New Normal of Covid-19 – How Authors Can Engage Their Audiences

In this episode, Mike Onorato talks with author, speaker and publishing veteran Dean Karrel about authors and all of us navigating the new normal  in the middle of the COVID-19 crisis, digital learning platforms, shifting from in-person events to web events and how to change your plans during these tumultuous times.
 
 
On the topic of digital learning, LinkedIn Learning is letting people view course for free that involve remote work and also using online video conferencing tools. Visit:
 
Transcript:

Mike Onorato:
Welcome to the All Things Book Marketing Podcast. I’m your host Mike Onorato and we hope everyone is safe and healthy and getting through this difficult time as best they can. We have a bit of a departure from the norm for our episode this week. Our guest today is, Dean Karrel career and executive coach and author of Mastering the Basics: Simple Lessons for Achieving Success in Business, which came out from Post Hill Press in July. He is the instructor of 12 courses with over 600,000 views available on LinkedIn Learning and has also been in senior leadership positions for more than three decades with major global publishing companies including 22 years at Wiley, which is how I got to meet Dean. He has trained and hired thousands of people at various stages of their careers, motivating them to maximize their abilities. He won Wiley’s president’s award for outstanding leadership and Baker and Taylor’s award for lifetime achievement. Dean, welcome.

Dean Karrel:
Mike, it’s great to be with you today. I wish it was under different circumstances where we were talking about different topics. But it is a pleasure to talk to you and as you said to your audience, you and I go way back and working together for many years. So it’s, it’s a pleasure to be able to chat with you today.

Mike Onorato:
Excellent. Thank you. The first question, Dean, that we’re all asking each other is how are you doing in these times?

Dean Karrel:
That’s probably the question, I guess, we’re all asking each other, our friends and colleagues and connections of how we’re making out. And I think it’s a learning curve for all of us. If you look back Mike, two to three weeks ago we were looking at, “Okay, we may have to make some changes in our business or changes in strategy.” A month ago, two months ago, we weren’t expecting this at all. So we are all learning on the fly here, me included. As you mentioned, I have courses with LinkedIn learning and I mentioned to somebody this morning, thank goodness I recorded my latest courses back in early mid January, because the studios for LinkedIn Learning are shutdown also, and they’re not taping at this time. So that piece of my business fortunately is already taken care of.

Dean Karrel:
I do career coaching. Ironically I love… I’m one of the different types of coaches where I actually like to meet people in person. Most coaches do it by video conference. That business has shifted. I’m working with people online through Skype calls or Zoom calls. My presentation work obviously, which again, I love doing in person that is all been postponed, delayed, or canceled. I don’t have an extensive list like some of the people you work with at Smith Publicity. But certainly that has changed dramatically. I do like to write, so I certainly have time to do some writing now.

Mike Onorato:
It’s interesting, because the new normal, and you mentioned so many of your day to day that has changed. And I would venture many of our listeners the same situation. We can’t travel. Things are being canceled, things are being closed, and the new normal is having a major impact across the board, and as you were saying these, this is all uncharted territory and no one knows… There’s no roadmap to figure out, “Okay, if I do this, in three months time, this will be the result.” Because we just have no idea what frankly tomorrow’s going to bring.

Dean Karrel:
That’s so true. And I think it’s really important. Everybody is giving advice now. We’re reading it online or we’re watching videos or somebody’s doing something different and you can get overwhelmed with advice, and there are no experts right now. We’re all, as you said, uncharted territory for where we’re headed and what’s the best way to do it. So I think we all have to learn to adapt, take a deep breath, and determine that we’re not going to be able to have the right strategy in place by tomorrow or next week or the week after.

Mike Onorato:
Speaking of advice. When I got to work with you on your book Mastering the Basics, one of the things that you talked a lot about in the book and also in subsequent interviews was giving advice to young professionals, whatever career level that may be, but on all things including applying for a job, recruiting, interviewing, et cetera, and to put that hat on for a moment, what advice would you give to some of these young professionals who are in these uncertain times and is there one piece or two pieces of advice that you think they need to hear during these tumultuous times?

Dean Karrel:
For new people looking for jobs or people who have been around a long time like myself, I think it’s very important for all of us to take a breath and take a deep breath and realize that whatever we were doing three weeks ago or the checklist of things that we wanted to accomplish two or three weeks ago, it can’t be done. So for people who are just getting into business or even those who’ve been around for a while, your objective list, your goal list has to be short and achievable. And recognizing that we do have a period of time here where a lot of things aren’t going to get accomplished. So what you want to focus on are the things where maybe it’s three months from now or six months from now of when you can regroup, but right now the most important thing, I think, is to keep your objectives and checklist of things that you want to get accomplished very small and very achievable. I think we all need to seek out not 50 mentors or 10 mentors. You need to find two people that you can go to for resources for help and assistance. It’s the people who you can trust for guidance and understanding. Getting a lot of different advice, like I said before, it can be overwhelmed and can get you dizzy.

Dean Karrel:
You don’t want to be a hermit either. The tendency right now is, “Okay, I’m holed up in my small apartment in New York city, or I’m in my house in New Jersey, or I’m in my lodge in Colorado and I just sit there.” Being by yourself, some people are really good at it. Most of us, that’s a real shift of lack of human contact, and that can take you down a path that’s not productive either. Not saying you need to reach out to your entire LinkedIn connections list or your Facebook list, but you need to have a contact list of four or five people that you’re regularly checking in with. Both helps them and it helps yourself. So the advice for whether you’re new to business, just getting into business, or you’ve been around for a while, there’s some basic things that I think that are important for all of us to do.

Mike Onorato:
For authors who are used to the personal connection of live audiences and they thrive off of that. I’ve been fortunate enough to see you at many a Wiley sales conference dinner, and you like me, Dean we thrive off of that interaction. Now for authors, they don’t have that. So what suggestions would you have for any authors or anybody frankly on how you can still get that connection, but have it be on a web or a digital platform?

Dean Karrel:
Well, I think this goes right to the core of the problem right now where a lot of people I know and a lot of people you work with at Smith Publicity, this is where people are getting a vast majority of their income from is speaking in front of people. A lot of the instructors that I’ve gotten a chance to meet at LinkedIn Learning, they have enormous businesses that they travel both around the US and around the world and speaking in front of people. And all of that business is dried up. The advice right now is, a lot of these people, my friends are just trying to hold onto their business and their focused now on… Some of them are looking at regrouping in the summertime, some for the fall, some as early as June. They’re each developing a strategy.

Dean Karrel:
So some of the advice is you got to take a deep breath and realize obviously nothing’s happening in April, and you’re not going to rebound and you’re not going to set an online or web based business up overnight and being able to do that. So the trick is, and the advice that I’ve told people, or the advice that I’m hearing from some of my friends who are in this business is they’re dying to do one at a time, and you have to start with the first one. Some people are really experienced at using Microsoft Teams or Zoom or Skype and setting up presentations, and God bless them, that’s terrific. But most of us are still learning that and still getting used to doing presentations that way. So rather than trying to set up five or four or six presentations, get that first one done and see if you can establish in a small group setting. Is that a longterm solution? No, but it gets you trained in developing and learning how to use these video conferencing and web based training techniques.

Mike Onorato:
And that’s amazing because, just get going, just take that first step. Based on some of the things that we’ve talked about, you and I previously offline obviously from this pod, are there soft skills or social things that you need to keep in mind as you transition your business from an in person speaking event to more of a digital based thing? I guess, Dean, are there best practices that you should keep in mind?

Dean Karrel:
Well, I think in this time and in an all times, I’ve always talked about the importance of networking and the importance of reaching out to people and communicating and how valuable that can be both in good times and more turbulent times like now. And again, I always preface that by saying that we hear the word networking, most of us cringe, because we think of having a little little sticker on our shirt that says, “Hi, I’m Mike from Smith Publicity,” or, “Hi, I’m Dean.” Networking is being on LinkedIn or being on any other social media platform and connecting with people who have similar interests and being able to talk and being able to communicate and learn about what they’re doing. So if you’re a keynote speaker or if you’re an author, a business writer, or you write novels or whatever type of writing you may do, it’s constantly reaching out to people who are in similar situations and just connecting. You’re not looking for a job, you’re not looking for business, but it’s those four or five people you can say, “How are you coping right now and what are you doing and what’s working for you?”

Dean Karrel:
I always use an example recently in the past six months, eight months, the times that I’ve been… My newest courses with LinkedIn Learning is I work with salespeople from around the world now. And as this current coronavirus has emerged, I’m hearing from the older these connections that I have, from around the world, from Russia, from Asia in Singapore, Australia, and they’re telling me what they’re doing. The big thing they’re using this time for in a lot of this in the sales category is just regrouping and restructuring their business practices of how they do things at home. It’s something you touched on Mike, about learning and doing new things and this is the time to be able to do that. I think networking is an important one. The social skills things, people skills things, we read that as some of the advice in newspapers and online is keeping an eye on our friends and reaching out. That’s the basics of social skills and people skills both in good times and more turbulent ones is reaching out to our network of friends, and that’s so critically important.

Mike Onorato:
It’s interesting that you mentioned that you’re hearing from colleagues around the world because probably never before, at least in our lifetimes, has there been something that has impacted everybody. It doesn’t matter where you are, what country you’re in, and we all talk about the various markets and selling a book here or selling a book there. The differences of that. And even frankly in my world, the difference of the media in these various countries, but that is left at the door when you’re talking about what we’re all facing. I’ve read so many things the last couple of weeks, Dean, and I’m sure you have as well. It’s about just being a person first and checking in with somebody and never has there been a better time to do that? A better excuse. I hate to say it, that it needs an excuse, but to check in with people then in a situation like this.

Dean Karrel:
Well that’s so very true. It’s also how you look at it in business where you’re seeing some companies who are doing a marvelous job in communicating and restructuring their format of how they want to get things done over the next period of time. And other companies are lagging. This is the time and a lot of corporations, you’ll hear some companies say, and especially in the sales area, keep that pipeline going. Reach out to people. People don’t want to be sold anything right now. They don’t want to buy anything. They’re just trying to maintain their business. You’ll see where some CEOs are doing weekly video conferencing, daily video conferencing. This is where managers become leaders, in situations like this because they reach out and as authors and as the people you deal with, Mike, at Smith Publicity, it’s each of them, each of the authors, how are they connecting in their network and how are they leading and helping out others who may be more nervous about how they’re going to continue and develop their business? We can’t handle managing the country or region. How do you manage and work with your connections of five to 10 people and help them out? Be a leader in your network and helping other people out. And I think that’s an important lesson for all of us to learn.

Mike Onorato:
For sure. For sure. Shifting gears for a moment, and we talk about these live events, and I’m really interested in this because we’re talking with a lot of authors about, “Yes, so your signing or your in person event might be canceled or postponed, but there are other things you can do.” If you would talk about… As someone who’s done many of these, talk about the execution of these events, how are they different in terms of online versus live in person?

Dean Karrel:
As I said before, I love speaking live. I love to wave my hands. I love doing walk around. I love to talk. I love to tell jokes. It’s a whole different process online and you have to… Certainly I think you need to be more succinct with your message, obviously. I mean, I’m talking to you now with my hands going. That’s just the way I talk. But online you have to be careful, you can’t be doing all of these things. So instead of a 45 minute presentation, maybe it’s a 25 minute presentation. You have to figure out and have a good moderator. Gosh, that’s so important. You need a air traffic controller on the other side who’s helping with the technology and helping with the Q&A. Sometimes we can make a presentation as an author or as a business person in a group, you just go on stage or you go in front of a classroom and you speak and it’s there and you’re done.

Dean Karrel:
But with your doing this online, you need somebody who is helping with the connection of the technology, the sound, the whole bit. And I think that’s so important in those cases. There are resources, and we talk about people saying, I’m learning how to use Zoom or I’m learning how to use Skype. I’ll forward you a link, Mike, that maybe some of your audience might want. LinkedIn Learning has courses on Zoom, on Bluejeans, WebEx, Skype, and Microsoft Teams. And they’re offering them for free. They’re all 45 minute courses. I just watched this… I’ve used Zoom a number of times, but I’ve got to get better at it. So I just took the course on Zoom and you hear everybody talking about that and how they do their presentations with that. But it’s a free course, 45 minutes, you’ll learn something. I think it’s very good and it’s free, so what’s better than that? So the go back to your original questions, what you need to do differently is recognize that you need to do something [inaudible 00:17:12] constantly be improving as you do that process going forward.

Mike Onorato:
Right. you mentioned something that I think has been such a wonderful thing to see and that is a lot of these various either learning platforms or in some cases in the news business, dropping the paywall and giving people the content they need right now for free. To use a very odd analogy, I’ve been reading about all these stories about how liquor companies, and don’t ask me how I got this information. Tito’s, for example, is repurposing their factories and their production lines, so instead of cranking out vodka, they’re cranking out hand sanitizer, and it got me thinking that we all talk and read and hear so much in the publishing world and in the business world and professional world about being nimble and boy, is that the perfect example, the Dean of being nimble, to repurpose what you’re doing in terms of vodka, to do hand sanitizer, to drop your pay walls, to give people the content they desperately need at any given time. I think that’s a great example of being nimble.

Dean Karrel:
You will be remembered. A lot of things are going to be remembered, hopefully sooner rather than later. Three months from now, six months from now, and certainly two years from now, when we look back at the spring of 2020, we’re going to say, “Do you remember what this company did? How good they were at reaching out? Or do you remember how good Mike Onorato was for checking in with me to see, ‘Hey, Dean, how’s your business?'” People won’t forget that. So when you say, what can we do during this period of time, whether you’re a company or whether you’re an individual is do things that can help others and be nimble, be agile, reach out. I keep using that phrase, be a leader. And again, you’ll be remembered for that.

Dean Karrel:
So you say, “How do I segue my business in my career and how do I pivot?” Well during these next three months, come up with a plan, and I’m just using that as a number. I mean, for me, I always work on 90 days. That’s just my thinking. So what am I trying to accomplish between March 25th and June 25th, and it’s reaching out to people, doing some writing, reorganizing my business, but having a plan of attack that when everything does get back to normal, and it will, there’s going to be a rebuilding period, but I’m going to be ready for that because I’ve taken this period of time to plan for it and regroup.

Mike Onorato:
I mentioned earlier about our time together at Wiley, 22 years for you, and 14 for me working with you, and if I can put your Wiley hat back on for a moment. So we’re sitting there in our lovely Hoboken office, Dean, and you’re talking to some Wiley authors and they’re expressing concern about these uncertain times. What would you advise them to do during these times?

Dean Karrel:
This is a unique situation in that we don’t have all the answers yet, but you have to remember that different situations… But I was a sales manager during 9/11, and I was on a business trip out in Colorado and it was totally different technology. We had plugin technology with our phones. We plug into a phone to get internet connections, and then the financial crisis of 2008 when the stock market really crashed and there were so many unknowns. What I’d say to authors now is, and I say to everybody, we don’t have all the answers yet, but we will rebound. We are a strong… The human race is pretty darn strong and we’ll figure this out. But the dilemma is, is that in the short term people are confused and they’re scared and we all have questions and I’m making it sound like, “Well Dean, you have the answers.”

Dean Karrel:
I don’t have the answers, but I do know that if we work together, we will get through this. So as authors, what I would say is what are the key things… Again, I go back to what do you want to accomplish? Don’t try to worry about September or October this year. What are you trying to accomplish march 25th through June 25th. I even go back to, and I say this in the best of times, what am I trying to accomplish the next week? I don’t know what’s going to happen with the virus in New York city or if it’s going to spread more throughout the country in other pockets where it’s not in there. But how do I get through the next week in the metropolitan New York area? What do I need to do? Well, what I can do is I can work on my writing, learn more about doing video conferencing and video sessions with it.

Dean Karrel:
I’m supposed to speak to a school in mid April and we switched from me doing it in person. Well, I’m working on my presentation today, just changing it all around so I have less interaction and more visuals and just restructuring a whole new presentation format. Originally I looked at… I post pretty regularly on LinkedIn, short videos, talking about motivation and skills and so forth. This is not the time for it, so I’ve put that on the back burner, but I’m still working on those scripts for the summer or in the fall and I’ve just moved my schedule out on those. So I’ve become more focused on things that I can accomplish, but between March 25th and March 31st. The next six days. That’s the advice that I would give to authors. Deep breaths, focused on the things that you can accomplish, and let’s get through the next week and then we start working on the month of April.

Mike Onorato:
I love it, I love it. That’s just the things that we can attain. Is there a benefit to posting a short video on social media, either on LinkedIn or some other platforms just sort of, I don’t know, Dean, checking in with people at large or is that too impersonal to do something along those lines?

Dean Karrel:
I think LinkedIn is… And I’m not an employee of LinkedIn. I do courses with their learning division. I’m a contract person with them. I think LinkedIn is the best source. And again, you’re not looking to find… People say, “Oh, you need to have 50,000 followers.” Oh, bologna. You need to have your select group of people that you can work with, learn from, help, and they can help you. So doing a short video… When I say short, Mike, it’s important for authors and writers to always remember. You’ll see people do these five minute videos. When was the last time you watched a five minute video? We all click. 30 seconds, one minute, and I’m a salesman so I talk too much, so mine go a minute and a half. And I used to do two minutes, and people [inaudible 00:24:06].

Dean Karrel:
So do a nice short message. Say what are you working on? “Hey, I’m an author based in Colorado. I’m an author based in Southern California. I’m holed up here with my computer and I’m working on X. This is my project that I’m working on.” You’re going to get some feedback from people and that’ll generate some ideas. You’ll never know, you might find a coauthor you could deal with in the future on some totally unrelated subject. Not impersonal at all. I think it’s good. You don’t need to post the… Mike, I wouldn’t say post your dog videos. You have two great dogs, but LinkedIn’s not for that. You need to post of how are you doing your business, Mike, based at home? You’re a people person. How do you doing this business at home? I’d love to see how you’re doing your podcast based from home? That’s an interesting subject and… Everybody can come up with one or two ideas, and that’s your project from March 25th to March 30th. It’s come up with, “Hey maybe we all try and post one video on LinkedIn and see what happens, see what generates.”

Mike Onorato:
You mentioned Zoom before and and BlueJeans and some others that I never heard of and I do sound like my parents now, but are there certain programs that you either use yourself or that you just happen to like Dean in terms of if there’s an author who is trying to connect with their audience or if there is someone who is trying to right the ship in their business are there certain programs that you use or like that you’d recommend?

Dean Karrel:
There are an enormous amount of learning programs right now. Again, this sounds great. This is the perfect time to learn new skills and new skill sets. Meanwhile people are saying, “I’m trying to find a way to pay the rent,” so I understand where a lot of people are with this. It’s so weird. I posted a video… I posted just a general post on LinkedIn last week about me watching and taking some LinkedIn Learning courses. I took one, as I mentioned, on Zoom. I took one on project management of all things. Just for how to organize my skills and my work here at home. If you’re a LinkedIn Premium member, you get the LinkedIn Learning for free. But if you’re not, for $29 a month, and you can cancel after a month, they’ve got 10,000 courses.

Dean Karrel:
This is a perfect time for learning new skills, and we’re all lovers of books, and this is a perfect time to read books. So support your independent book seller, support Barnes & Noble, support Amazon, support all of our sources for reading. Heaven help us, the poor reading community. This is tough right now with our independent booksellers. So anything that we can do to read and enhance our skills is benefiting both the bookseller and yourself. Part of me wants to say I don’t care where you buy or learn to do things, but this is a good opportunity to do it, and you need to take advantage of it. Yeah, you can watch a Netflix movie, [inaudible 00:00:27:13], but this is the perfect time for “I got to improve.” And for me it is… I’ve always been an avid reader, as you know, Mike, I read a lot of business books.

Dean Karrel:
For $20 it’s the greatest… Less than $20 in this day and age. It’s the best investment you can do to enhance your skills. And the same holds true for these 45 minute courses on LinkedIn Learning. I mean it’s like, wow, I’ve learned so much from some really terrific instructors on tons of different subjects and this is the terrific time to do it. Especially in technology where I think a lot of us, me included, are a little weak on some of these skills, and I think I’m good, but then I realize, “Wow, I’ve got to learn a lot more.” So I would urge people to do that.

Mike Onorato:
I think you answered this question earlier, but I really want to use this quote and I’m dying to use it one time in this podcast, so just indulge me for a moment. That is the famous Mike Tyson quote, the eloquent Mike Tyson, when he said that everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. So the question I was going to ask, which I know you touched on earlier, was what would you advise authors now that their plans have to shift? The word there, Dean, I want to call out is have to. We don’t want to be insensitive or just not paying attention to world events, so it does mean that you need to shift your plans, but what advice would you give authors who all of a sudden now are faced with uncertainty?

Dean Karrel:
Well as you remember from my book, Mike, one of the key aspects that I always talk about and even during my time at Wiley was the importance of planning and preparation. Even in the best of times, it’s the critical importance of planning or preparation. I’m also one even in the best of times, where I get confused and rattled and overwhelmed if I start thinking of too many things. My big thing for everybody and what I train people on is the importance of having short term plans. And again, I touched on it before was, I just want to get through, “Today’s the 25th. How am I going to get through the rest of this week? What do I want to accomplish? What are my achievable goals for next week, the end of March?” I’m not worried about… Again, I’m not worried about September right now.

Dean Karrel:
It’s in my longterm thinking that I’m going to have plans for September, but right now, how do I get through the next 10 days? And how do we get through April? So we all have gotten that Mike Tyson punch in the mouth. None of us expected this. None of us. So how do we take a deep breath and say, “What are the things that I want to accomplish?” And again, it’s stepping back and for me it’s saying, “I want to do X, Y, and Z, and if I get it done, hallelujah.” And again, they talked about the sensitivity. There are people right now in so many businesses that are really suffering, so it’s very easy for me to say go take a LinkedIn Learning course or do this or do that. I think we have to recognize there’s some people suffering. That’s why it goes back to the networking piece. We have to reach out to people and say, “We will be there and help you as best we can.”

Mike Onorato:
For sure. Scary and surreal and frightening times, but I think the one thing that I’ve just been been blown away by and that helps me get out of bed in the morning is the way people are banding together and they’re… I guess you’ll learn a lot about somebody or some company or some organization when times are rough. I think it’s an important part of our character to some extent, how we do when the chips are down.

Dean Karrel:
Well that’s so true. When companies go through turmoil or industries go through turmoil or people go through turmoil, you see the true character of an individual. The character of an individual comes out when times get tough and those who are good and resourceful and helpful and caring, that character comes out in people and you see it. There’s a lot of it out there and there are a few squirrely things going on as we know, and we see it online and people doing crazy things. It’s a lot of times because people are nervous and scared. It’s like the run on toilet paper of all things, and people panic. That’s where they look for leadership, and when you have…

Dean Karrel:
In business, I’m not going in the political realm here, but in business when you have leaders that say, “Calm down, take a deep breath, this is how we’re going to get through our business right now. Or this is how we’re going to get through, as a writer or as an author, this is how I’m going to make it through the next three months. I’m going to reach out to my audience, weed out the people who have read my previous books.” It’s those messages of, “Here’s the strategy, here’s the plan and…” This is where, again, so when you said people reaching out, and this just brings out the best of people, you can be a part of that as an individual by reaching out to your small or large audience of connections.

Mike Onorato:
Great advice. Great advice. Before I let you go, we need to talk about the New York Yankees to discuss the… I think it’d be so much different if we all had a distraction right or, or aggravation of it. But let’s talk about the Yankees, and how do you feel in terms of what happened to Houston, what happened at Boston? Their chances, A in the AL East, and B, longterm, and can this pitching staff hold up without Severino?

Dean Karrel:
To step back for a second, it is, I think that diversion for many people… It’s like the diversion of going to Book Expo, the diversion of going to ALA, that’s not there. For those who are into sports, the diversion of March Madness, the basketball tournament, the version of… You and I, Mike, would be talking daily about Yankee baseball and here we are talking at the end of a conversation about the turmoil in the world. When the season starts I think we are going to be okay. We got a great team and injuries do happen. So many pitchers right now from the Mets, the Red Sox and the Yankees. This rotator cuff surgery. If we had known better, we would have gone to college and become surgeons.

Dean Karrel:
That injury, right? Yeah. Well thank goodness I didn’t go into medicine. I think the Yankees will be okay and the rivalry will always be there with the Red Sox no matter what shape they’re in. You go back to six weeks ago we were talking about the Houston Astros and the craziness of the banging on the garbage can. And right now it’s like, who cares? It’s like, who cares? Again, going back, let’s get through the next seven days and let’s see where we are. But I think all of us could use the diversion of golf and sports and basketball and baseball because it helps get our minds away from some of the things that we’re trying to do with both business and our personal lives.

Mike Onorato:
for sure. For sure. Well Dean, this has been an absolute pleasure. It’s great to chat with you again. This was on me. I have been neglecting to call you lately, so I took a step and and reached out and did one better and had you on the podcast. For those who don’t follow Dean, his last name is K-A-R-R-E-L and I invite you to check out his LinkedIn profile for those videos he mentioned and just for some other great content. And once again the title of Dean’s book was is Mastering the Basics: Simple Lessons for Achieving Success in Business. Dean, I wish you and your family wellness, health, safety, hope to see you again in person. And in the meantime, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dean Karrel:
Mike, thank you so much and thank you also for all the great help you gave me when my book was published and best to Joanna and your wife, and again, to all your listeners and clients, good health, happiness, and we will get through this. We will. Just have to have fait. We’ll be there. Take care.

Mike Onorato:
For sure. This was the All Things Book Marketing Podcast. I’m your host Mike Onorato. Bye for now.