New Podcast: How to Work with a Book Distributor – With Bailey Davis of Ingram Content Group

In this episode, we talk with Bailey Davis of Ingram Content Group about key questions a publisher should answer before entering a contract with a distributor, some of the services that a distributor can provide and activities and initiatives a publisher should keep their distributor updated on.

Bailey started her career at Ingram in the Customer Service department and  moved into a sales position, working with Independent Publishers. In this role, she educated and assisted mid-sized publishers in how best to utilize Ingram’s POD, digital and global distribution services to maximize their revenue. She also led efforts to build programs and services specifically designed for our Independent publishers. While in Marketing as part of the Publisher Engagement Team, Bailey worked to find new and better ways to communicate and interact with all publishers. Focusing on the customer experience, she designed publisher facing training, education and events and works with internal product teams to build products and services that our publishers need and want. Now, as Supervisor, Content Acquisition Sales, she leads a group that provides consultative service to small and midsize publishers who are in need of a global and dynamic distribution solutions. Bailey has her Bachelors of Art in English Literature and graduated in August 2020 with her MBA from the Jones College of Business at MTSU.

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FULL TRANSCIPT: 

Mike Onorato:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Things Book Marketing Podcast. I’m your host Mike Onorato. Joining us today is Bailey Davis. Bailey started her career at Ingram in the customer service department and moved into a sales position, working with independent publishers. In this role, she educated and assisted mid-size publishers in how best to utilize Ingram’s POD, digital and global distribution services to maximize their revenue. She also led efforts to build programs and services specifically designed for independent publishers. While in marketing as part of the publisher engagement team, Bailey worked to find new and better ways to communicate and interact with all publishers. Now as supervisor content acquisition sales, she leads a group that provides consultive service to small and mid-sized publishers who are in need of a global and dynamic distribution solution. Bailey, welcome.

Bailey Davis:

Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here.

Mike Onorato:

What a bio. I think our paths may have crossed many, many years ago when I was at Wiley. But if not, as we all know what a small world publishing is.

So it’s great to have you on. And I’d like to launch right into it and talk about some key questions that a publisher should answer or maybe a better way to ask the question, Bailey is what are some key questions they should keep in mind before entering a contract with a distributor?

Bailey Davis:

Yeah, that’s a really great question to lead into more questions. So I think it really comes down to… It’s a combination of having a set of questions in mind and also knowing that there are multiple different types of distribution models that a publisher has access to. When we say distributor, we think for the most part the full service distribution model, which is where you work with the distributing brand, they hold some of your inventory, they also offer things like field sales representation and they help get your book into retail stores. That has its own kind of unique and distinctive model.

Bailey Davis:

Another way that publishers can work with distributors is via a wholesale relationship, which is where they work with just a wholesaler directly. A really great example of that is Ingram book company, where we provide the opportunity for you to sell your inventory through our wholesale models to our retail network. And in that particular case, we work with the publisher and we say, we predict X number of units in demand over the next number of days. Please send us those many units from your warehouse. And it’s a very direct relationship. And then the last option that our publishers have to work with a different type of distribution model is called virtual distribution, where you don’t hold any inventory and you print on demand or you print as orders come in.

Bailey Davis:

And in that model, what you do is you actually have virtual inventory presented to retail market. So as a print on demand title, it’s always available without having to worry about overprinting or underprinting and you print as demand meets. And so certain questions that publishers need to be asking themselves is most certainly which of those distribution models fits best with my budget and in my own particular business model.

Bailey Davis:

And so in particular, a publisher should ask themselves, how am I going to want to price to the market? And so right now with the introduction of just a really disruptive publishing market with indie publishers, self publishing authors and instill the traditional publishing model. The ability to price a little bit more flexibly has really become a great point of advantage for some publishers. But for models like full service distribution and wholesale, it’s really important to make sure… Ask yourself, am I pricing right for that relationship? And for me, what that means for a publisher is full trade discounts and a returnable status on their content if they.

Mike Onorato:

Right.

Bailey Davis:

One of the key-

Mike Onorato:

I’m going to say the dreaded R word returnable, right?

Bailey Davis:

Yes. Yes, the dreaded R word is returnable. And it really is… Because whenever you enter into a relationship with a wholesaler directly and the distribution brands or a full service distribution brand, what you’re really getting access to is their retail network and their network of brick and mortar retail stores and those retail buyers, the people who are actually buying from your field sales team or from your wholesaler, they require those full trade discounts and that returnable status. And so you want to make sure that that’s going to fit into the business model for everyone within that kind of supply chain there.

Bailey Davis:

And two, another really good question for those who might be looking for full service distribution, a question I always tell them to ask is, does my brand fit within theirs? And so most distribution brands have a very specific niche market that they really serve as well or they have a very specific brand that they’re trying to foster and really leverage for their success and their other clients. And so take a look at the other clients that that distributor might have and does your content kind of fit within that same realm because that means that’s what they do really well. And so make sure that your content so that… Kind of come back to the question that you should be asking is, does my brand and my content fit within that same kind of culture that that distribution brand is telling you that they work best with?

Mike Onorato:

Interesting, what are some of the lesser known services that a distributor can provide?

Bailey Davis:

That’s a great question. So a full service distributor kind of we talked about really is most commonly known for having a field sales team. But some things that they can help you with that you might not know about would be things like warehousing, order fulfillment, backend office functions like royalties and collecting. And so those are a few of the things that some people don’t realize that distributors can help you with. And so it’s really important to understand too that within that distribution model, especially for full service distribution publishers, each relationship that a distributor has with a client is very unique and catered to the client. So it could be any variation of those different things that the client needs for a successful business relationship.

Mike Onorato:

We work with a fair amount of small to mid-size publishers. So I think this conversation is going to be of interest to them simply because we hope informs them of the landscape. And also as we talked about Bailey, it gives people options and I think those are the key things here in… Publishing in the world of 2020 is having all of those options, right?

Bailey Davis:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Onorato:

And so and knowing-

Bailey Davis:

Exactly.

Mike Onorato:

And knowing what you can do and can’t do. So what activities and initiatives should a publisher keep their distributor looped into? What updates and kinds of things will a distributor be looking for?

Bailey Davis:

Yeah, that’s great. So, and to kind of really kind of add a little bit more context to the full service distribution model, in that model, you will sell by seasons. And so having that lead time on titles is very important. So make sure that you have your timelines with your distributor very clear. They will want to have your catalog for the spring in the fall. And so keep those catalogs as much informed with your distribution partner as possible. Anytime that you’re doing something special with marketing or publicity or anything like that, you need to make sure that you let your team know.

Bailey Davis:

That way, they know how to predict that demand. So in the case where you are using an inventory only model. So let’s say, you’ve got your offset run and you’ve got inventory, but maybe you don’t let your distribution team know that there’s a big promotion coming out. You certainly want to make sure that you let them know that way they know to anticipate that demand for that content. Other things to let them know about are interviews that you might be on, TV, radio podcasts or any awards that you might be up for the book. So if you’re about to… Or if you’ve been nominated for an award or if you were about to win an award, certainly let your distribution team know about that as well.

Mike Onorato:

I spent 12 years in house at Wiley and this was what I spent so much time doing was keeping the sales team updated as to obviously confirm media of course, but also interest and interest beyond the, hey, they’re looking at the book. But interest to the extent that they want to schedule interview the week of the 10th to air our week of the 17th, trying to confirm details so that all of those bigger initiative and all those big opportunities, the reps knew about them and could alert their individual channels and to maximize those kinds of opportunities.

Bailey Davis:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely, it’s really important to keep that, especially whenever you think about a distribution partner as a business partner really. It’s really important that you let them know what you’re doing to help sell more of your content because they’re the ones who are helping you fulfill that demand. And so keeping them apprised as to what you’re trying to do to drive sales is really critical for that.

Mike Onorato:

PR is 1/2 of the job is doing it and 1/2 of the job is telling people what you’re doing.

Bailey Davis:

Sure.

Mike Onorato:

And this case, it’s so important. Again, to talk to sort of put my in-house hat back on. One of the big things for us was backlist. So can you talk about some effective backlist selling or promotional strategies that you feel might be of help to other publishers?

Bailey Davis:

Absolutely, so if you’ve got a backlist that you want to refresh or maybe kind of regenerate, rejuvenate sales for one thing that really helps with that is refreshing your metadata because the way that consumer behavior has changed, even in the past 12 months. The way that they search for things, the way that they shop for things, the way that they discover things is going to change very regularly. So one of the best things you can do for a backlist title is to make sure that your metadata is up to date. Make sure that your keywords are still relevant. Make sure that your bisects are still relevant. And really kind of understand how your consumer might stumble upon that book and figure out how to optimize that for the consumer.

Bailey Davis:

Another thing to do is to send out a new format. Maybe if you didn’t use all of the available formats for the initial release, maybe release it in a new format. One thing that we work with are our publishers on is the ability to promote their content using EPUB giveaways or samples that also help them collect email addresses that they can promote to as well. And so it’s really going to come down to really understanding how your consumer might have changed since the time that you released it the first time and making sure that you update those things like the metadata, understanding that maybe they will want to consume it in a different format and maybe that will help refresh the sales there.

Bailey Davis:

And then also kind of getting people to re-engage with the content in ways of ebook giveaways, ebook samples and taking advantage of that engagement with those by collecting those email addresses and really just kind of honing in on that list of interested audience members. I would say of those I think metadata is just something, a word that has been really, really used a ton over the past few years and it is so critical. It’s one of those where we say, if you take anything away from this, metadata. It is so critical with backlist. So, and it’s also all it costs you is your time. So just update the metadata. And there are so many great free tools out there that’ll help you figure out how consumers are looking for certain things that it’s really just… All it costs is your time to update that metadata.

Mike Onorato:

And so I must ask the question just from a basic standpoint, can you just quickly tell folks what you mean when you say metadata?

Bailey Davis:

Oh, yes. Absolutely, so metadata is any little tidbit of information about your book. So it could be anything like the trim size or the buying type or the page count. In this case in terms of discoverability, metadata, pieces of metadata are things like a bicep code or a key word or the description or the author’s name and information on the contributors and their roles. So it’s really anything that describes the book itself or the content that it contains that makes it a searchable piece of information.

Mike Onorato:

It’s so crucial and it’s a phrase that I think, to your point, gets sort of bandied about and people talk about it and they buzz about it, but they don’t take it seriously. They don’t understand the importance of it. And it’s just vital with discoverability and everything else that you’ve mentioned that it’s the most overlooked. Would you say in terms of things that authors or publishers forget to do?

Bailey Davis:

Yes, it’s the most overlooked and easiest marketing tool that a publisher or an author can have right in their pocket.

Mike Onorato:

Right. Right. Yeah, oh boy. Those metadata conversations. As we segue off of that, all important items. What are some ways that a publisher can incorporate their publicist into their distribution, hello, let me try this again, into their distributor relationship. In other words, what should the role of publicity be with a publisher here? And I know we sort of kind of touched on that earlier. But there’s a lot… Obviously, the publicist is flying at 1,000 miles an hour as I am trying to do here and working on so many things, but what should they specifically keep in mind vis-a-vis their publisher when it comes to a distributor?

Bailey Davis:

It certainly is really great for a publisher to be able to give information to their distributor about the plans, the upcoming plans, any upcoming strategies or campaigns. Really the best way for all three of those parties to work in a really cohesive way is just, and it feels like the tale as old as time, is that ability to communicate between the lines. And really I think it comes down to for the publisher to be able to take what they’re doing with the publicity firm and to effectively communicate that to the distribution provider. It comes down to really clear and really effective and efficient plans, campaigns, anything that’s going on within the next…

Bailey Davis:

I would say, it needs to be done in six months because of the way that distribution seasons work. Anything that’s going to happen within the next six months in terms of promotion marketing campaigns. And having that in a way that can easily be used by a distributor who’s going to be focused on making sure that those books are on shelves, making sure that we have warehouse inventory on hand to fill the man. And so it just comes down to that communication. Making sure that as a publisher, you are getting very clear information from your publicity firm in terms of what kind of marketing your team needs to be prepared for.

Bailey Davis:

And when I say your team, I mean, the team that’s going to have to actually fill that demand. And so it comes down to really making sure that you don’t make any surprises in either direction. So don’t leave anything to surprise either your publicity firm or your distributor. Make sure that you’ve got that open line of communication. Both lines know exactly what’s coming at least within the next six months. And it really relies, especially in the case where you’re using a full service distributor or even only a wholesale distribution relationship, if inventory being on hand is critical to the success of your launch, you have to make sure that those lines of communication remain open.

Mike Onorato:

You mentioned something interesting earlier and I wanted to touch back on that and that is the notion of book awards. So besides just media which we know is important, but even the nomination for book award, can you kind of touch back on that a little bit?

Bailey Davis:

Yes, so in most cases, I can’t think of any cases where this is not true. But I always like to say in most cases, just in case there is that one, whenever you’re nominated for an award, there’s still a lot of process between then and the time that you’re awarded it. And there’s still a lot of publicity around those titles that have been nominated. Most associations or groups that do awards, they do releases that say, here’s our nominees for these categories. And that’s… I mean, like I said, it’s free publicity.

Bailey Davis:

But it’s getting your stuff out there. And so having that nomination means that people are going to be interested in that content. And whenever you’re promoted in that associations or that organizations material, especially if they’re going to the trouble of hosting an awards program, they are going to send out a notification on here are nominees and in the same way that they’re going to send out here are the people who actually won. So having that nomination is an opportunity to drive demand. And so letting your team know that, hey, I’ve been nominated for this award. It also helps them plan for if you win what they can kind of try and plan for.

Mike Onorato:

Really good advice. How to… Talk about ways that a publisher can prepare for that first conversation with a distributor.

Bailey Davis:

Oh, I love that. So, love that conversation. So the best way, and I’ll kind of talk about this in the three components that I mentioned earlier, full service, wholesale and virtual distribution. And the one that most people are familiar with will be full service. And that’s the one I’ll touch on first, which is things that you need to do to prepare for that first conversation. Do you research? It comes back around to what I said earlier. Make sure that your brand is going to fit within there. So they want to make sure that you’re a fit for them and that they’re a fit for you and that they’re going to be able to do the best that they can by your catalog. And so if the content is very, very different from what they’re used to working with, you might want to keep doing some research and find a different distributor.

Bailey Davis:

You also, leading up to that conversation, make sure that you have your data. Come prepared with your sales history, come prepared with your returns history, come prepared with some of the titles that you’ve released in the past that you’ve been most excited about and what you have upcoming that you’re most excited about. You really want to make sure that you’re not just saying, “Hey, I have these great books.” But you also have the data to show these great books that also performed really well. And having that prepared as you go into those conversations really helps kind of present the full package to the acquisitions manager for those distribution brands.

Bailey Davis:

And so if you’ve done your research first and then you have put together information about your sales history, your acquisition strategy and some really good highlights of what you’ve done in the past really well and what you have coming up in the next 12 to 18 months for content is really going to help set up that conversation to be very efficient, very effective. And it just kind of really helps put that full picture together for full service. For a wholesale distribution conversation where it’s a little bit more of a passive relationship, they hold inventory to fill demand for a certain timeframe and they just work with you to keep inventory in hand.

Bailey Davis:

What you want to do there is, it comes down less about the brands. So you don’t need to be worried about your catalog being a good fit for the brand because they’re working with publishers of all shapes and sizes and content types. But you do still want to come prepared with your sales data because they do want to make sure that they’re working with you in a capacity that helps your business be successful. And the way that they do that is that they use your history and your sales history and your performance as a good way to judge if that model is a good fit for you.

Mike Onorato:

And when it comes to sales data… How do I ask this question delicately, if the numbers aren’t robust, how’s that, is that necessarily a big turnoff? If they’re a smaller publisher, maybe they just don’t have the reach quite yet. Is there going to be the situation where someone says, “Oh, these numbers are really low.” Or is there some, I guess, some leeway there?

Bailey Davis:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So in some cases, there are general guidelines for those two business models and I can give those guidelines if you think it would be helpful for your audience, Mike.

Mike Onorato:

Sure. Yeah, if you don’t mind.

Bailey Davis:

Great, so for those that are looking for a full service distribution relationship, the distributing brand is really looking for around six new titles per year and two years worth of sales that would be $250,000 in net sales for two years. And those are just general guidelines. It is certainly a situation where if there is an exception and the acquisitions manager thinks that there’s a really great opportunity there, maybe you’re not there yet, they don’t use that as a hard, fast rule at all times. And then for wholesale, typically they want you to have at least 10 products.

Bailey Davis:

They want you to have an established catalog already in place. And the last I checked, I think it is the guideline that they use is $50,000 in sales in net sales per year. And so that’s kind of the guideline that you can use. And then for virtual distribution where you still get access to the entire retail network. So in the case of the company I work with at Ingram, publishers have the option where both of those sets of benchmarks seem really far away for them or maybe they’re not there yet. What they do instead is they use virtual distribution, which gets them into the same exact channels.

Bailey Davis:

It gets them into the same exact markets. It actually puts them directly with Ingram book company. They just don’t hold any inventory. And the requirements there are much, much lower in the sense that all we require in the virtual inventory side of the business are files that we can print. And we have to keep that in mind as publishers who really want that end goal to be a fully distributed publisher. It’s really key. And the reason those benchmarks exist is because full-service distribution and wholesale distribution is not free.

Bailey Davis:

The cost that is associated with using those models. Those benchmarks are there to make sure that by assuming that additional cost, you will still be able to be profitable. And so with virtual distribution, you’re able to still gain access to a wholesale partner as well as the big online retailers like Amazon and Barnes and Noble. You don’t have to hold any inventory and you don’t have to worry about your sales history. But you get to work and sell through those networks and not worry about having to meet certain benchmarks each year to maintain that relationship.

Mike Onorato:

Interesting. I mean, it’s all about the numbers, right?

Bailey Davis:

Right.

Mike Onorato:

And we get that. And I think it’s really helpful just to get some sort of benchmark to see either how close you are or frankly, what maybe what work you need to do and then maybe engage with a distributor in a year or so, right?

Bailey Davis:

Right.

Mike Onorato:

And sort of kind of go that route. But I think on any kind of data is helpful?

Bailey Davis:

Exactly. Yes, and it is certainly a situation where any three of those models can live in a blend of some kind of combination. It’s just in a lot of cases, the best first step to start into that retail market to get those relationships is through virtual inventory so that you can kind of ease into that relationship, ease into those business models while still having access to the exact same network.

Mike Onorato:

To talk about, this is one question I’ve been asking a lot of the folks we’ve had on over the last, I guess, six or seven months during this pandemic is some of the changes they’ve noticed on their end and changes frankly, that may not revert back to quote and quote “normal” when things open up. Have you noticed any changes in either the way you are interacting with publishers or maybe some things that you feel are changes for the better while we’ve all been in this situation?

Bailey Davis:

That’s a really great question, Mike. I would say, the biggest changes that our publishers have seen and that has resulted in a change for, I think, for good that might not fully revert back is that a lot of our publishers are indie publishers particularly have really had to pivot away from in-person events, especially from the month of March through August, when there were still a lot of regulations and restrictions. In some states, those are easing up. But one thing that they’ve had to really pivot from is that reliance on in-person events, trade shows, things like that. And so how they’ve done that and the ones that have done that pivot successfully have really started to take advantage of online sales, virtual sales. Publishers who work with virtual wholesale also gain access to one of the things that we call it internally CDF, but it actually stands for consumer direct fulfillment.

Bailey Davis:

And so what they’ve been able to do is instead of having to rely on in-person events, they’ve pivoted to social media events and send them to a place where they can buy the book. And because they use virtual inventory, we’re actually able to ship it directly to the consumer. Publisher doesn’t even have to touch it. They just have to get them to the place where they can say, yes, I want to buy this book. And then we take care of printing, shipping and dropping it directly onto the doorstep of the person who bought the book. And the ones that we’ve seen who have been really successful in this really challenging year, really take advantage of a combination or a full adoption of virtual inventory for some or all of their catalog. And because for a while there, warehouses were being shut down, orders couldn’t get in and out. And now we start to see the struggles that shipping will start to have.

Bailey Davis:

We’ve already started to see logistically, just logistics companies are struggling to keep up with demand. And so as we go into to the end of the year, it’s going to be important for publishers to continue to rely on that ability to shorten the journey from the consumer to the delivered product. And part of that is that virtual, that kind of adoption of virtual print on demand, which we’ve been seeing significantly. And that’s been one thing that we definitely have really strong confidence that we’ll continue even after COVID-19. And so it’s really been interesting to watch how they adapt. It’s been very fascinating. The lessons that we’ve learned from our publishers is just constantly amazing to me. And I think… I’m sorry that was a really long-winded way to answer that question, but it gave me the field.

Mike Onorato:

No, not at all. And it’s interesting because I think March and April, there was sort of… Everybody kind of was stuck. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t know the changes. And then all of a sudden, the industry as a whole embraced what was required of us to basically survive. And now with, I wouldn’t say the word thriving, but doing pretty well. And I’ve just been amazed at how fast… Listen, we’ve all… Well, I’ve been in publishing for a while probably longer than you. And it’s funny because this is not exactly industry that adapt to change well, how’s that? But they did, we did. And we found a way to survive and let’s hope God willing that a lot of these independent bookstores still make it and everything else. But it’s just been amazing to see how fast we’ve had to change and we’ve adapted to that and to our credit, right?

Bailey Davis:

Exactly, it’s been fascinating. I think you hit the nail on the head. Publishing has not been an industry historically that jumps at change. And I think this year it has certainly… The necessity has met opportunity for them for sure.

Mike Onorato:

For sure. Right. Yeah, are there any new undertakings or offerings that you’re rolling out there at Ingram?

Bailey Davis:

Yeah. Yeah, so right now, I think we’re going to all start talking about 2020 like we mentioned metadata. No, it’s unpredictable. So our focus right now is really helping our publishers meet supply chain demand. And that really comes down to making sure that we have the right capacity in place. A few months ago, we made investments to increase our capacity. And so that’s been a big focus for us is to make sure that our clients are able to meet that supply chain demands. And it’s been really critical for them, especially for those who I was talking about earlier, who really made this pivot successfully by using virtual models to meet the new normal, the demand of the new normal in terms of specific products. One thing that we’ve released within the last, I would say 12 months is a groundwood paper option. It’s a lighter weight. It has a bigger bulk. So if you think about the delightful romance novels, I can’t recall the model who used to be on them, Fabio, an old Fabio romance novel.

Mike Onorato:

Wow, there you go.

Bailey Davis:

That lightweight paper that everyone kind of associates with. Those romance novels that we’ve started to offer that to our publishers who need maybe a lighter weight book with a bigger bulk. It makes it look like a bigger book, weighs less. We’ve rolled that out to really great adoption. It’s been really exciting to see publishers take advantage of that. And then we’ve recently released a program that’s really designed for independent publishers who need a really inclusive print and digital global solution for their press and their catalog. It’s called the Ignite Program, which I am just so excited to be the leader of.

Bailey Davis:

And it’s been really fascinating to see our early adoption program of that really just take off with our publishers. And so between our focus on making sure that our publishers can meet the demand of their consumers rolling out new formats in the way of groundwood paper. So now you can have your original release, the hardcover and then your paperback and then later on down the road. Or, hey, all at once, you can do your groundwood format. And the new program really designed for our independent publishers. That’s been our big focus this year kind of in terms of what we’re trying to provide to our publishers to help secure their success.

Mike Onorato:

There you go. There you go. Interesting, and last question because we touched on it briefly is tell me about your two dogs.

Bailey Davis:

My two dogs. Oh, they’re delightful. They’re also really sometimes a pain, but they are beautiful dogs. I have two rescues. And there’s one, she’s about 75 pounds. She’s a big fire missile whenever she’s excited. And then our small one, June. She’s another rescue. And she is probably the most affectionate animal I’ve ever met in my life. But they’re delightful. Me and my fiance, we’re just absolute dog people. So-

Mike Onorato:

That’s great. This is a dog-friendly podcast.

Bailey Davis:

Oh, wonderful.

Mike Onorato:

I’m surprised as we’re coming towards the end of this that my two haven’t said hello.

Bailey Davis:

[inaudible 00:35:10].

Mike Onorato:

Usually, they wait till I’m on a Zoom or a podcast or something to bark at a leaf blowing in the distance a mile away.

Bailey Davis:

Absolutely. Oh man, our dogs would get along so well.

Mike Onorato:

Well, this has been great. I really want to thank Bailey Davis from Ingram for joining us today on the podcast. Stay tuned for more information. We’ll include, Bailey, some information to show notes so that folks can if interested to reach out and connect with you and go from there.

Bailey Davis:

I would love to hear from anyone with any questions.

Mike Onorato:

Oh-oh, that’s sounds like a loaded question. But Bailey, thank you so much for joining us. This has been another episode of the Smith Publicity All Things Book Marketing Podcast. I’m your host, Mike Onorato. Bye for now.